Comments on Mike Brown's Planets: Haumea
Mark Pole: having your work stolen from you and th...Mark Pole: having your work stolen from you and then pointing the finger at the thief is not about ego, it's about justice. And it's not just about Professor Brown, it's about scientific ethics in general. It doesn't matter how the Spanish team stole the discovery of Haumea, it just matters that they did.<br /><br />--Alex B.
Laurel: I'm glad you came around about the nam...Laurel: I'm glad you came around about the naming rights issue. And I agree the IAU should have determined its decision on the proponderance of the evidence and officially awarded the discovery to Mike Brown. The compromise should have been simply not sanctioning the Spanish team, which they should. <br /><br />It's been 10 more years, any updates at all on this controversy? <br /><br />--Alex B.
Laurel: "that we find out who discovered EL6...Laurel: "that we find out who discovered EL61 first... is nothing more than a battle of egos."<br /><br />Easy for you to say. Imagine spending hours and hours studying the sky and then finding an object. And then spending months calculating the object's orbit an properties to confirm what you found, only to have it scooped by someone spying on your observations. <br /><br />Imagine Clyde Tombaugh spending much of his life studying photographic plates to eventually find Pluto. So if a janitor at Lowell looked over his shoulder and ran to the papers saying that he found the 9th planet, any protest by Tombaugh would be his "ego" talking? <br /><br />Alex B.
did you name the moons . you found them.did you name the moons . you found them.
My apologies for joining in this debate three year...My apologies for joining in this debate three years after the last post.<br /><br />I just finished reading Professor Brown´s book, which i have enjoyed a lot, it´s clear, easy to read, and truly entertaining.<br /><br />To the point. Regarding the problem with Haumea discovery, something i didn´t know anything about until i read that chapter, my feelings were of complete embarrasment.<br /><br />I fully disagree with your point of view about it. <br />I´m spanish, i know how underfunded science is in my country, and i can clearly spot a "chance to make a great discovery on someone´s else work" when i see one. <br />We have a saying in Spain: "if it´s white and it´s bottled....then it´s milk", that perfectly fits this controversy.<br /><br />"Simultaneous" scientific/mathematical discoveries have happened in the past, not because one of the discoverers had spied on the other´s work, just the subject was ripe for a clear mind to develop the hypothesis/theory, and there´s not a single clear mind at any given spot in time. Coincidences happen (there´s a ruder way of expressing it, if you follow me).<br /><br />But in my opinion, in this case there´s no coincidence, no chance of simultaneous discovery, ... computer logs showing who accessed that database and when, the precise timing of these records and the announcement, the subsequent accesses to the data, and the lack of immediate response from Ortiz when challenged (we spanish tend to immediately become bad tempered when challenged), clearly shows trickery from the spanish team´s side. I don´t need a degree in psycology to spot it.<br />And i feel embarrased. That´s not the science i want in my country.<br /><br />As of your way of putting it down, i don´t see a reason for being that rude and going personal but, what do i know on anyone else´s intentions?
Juan Carlos Llauradóhttps://firstname.lastname@example.org:blogger.com,1999:blog-9094742788006644220.post-35387122678702420542012-08-07T22_43_30.157-07_002012-08-07T22_43_30.157-07_00
I just finished reading your book "how I kill...I just finished reading your book "how I killed Pluto..." and the most fascinating part was the controversy about the Spanish astronomers. It seemed to me that the book was written in part in order to rant about it. However, in my opinion, as someone who had no previous knowledge of this controversy until two days ago when I read that part of your book, you failed to convince and actually you came out worse than you probably think. Your arguments are, at the most, as convincing as the ones presented by the astronomers in Spain. It seems you expect to win the argument simply because you have a better research record and work at a more prestigious institution. Apart from the Spanish team being, in your opinion, an underdog, I see no reason why you should be attacking them over and over. At the end, your plan of hiding data in order to maximise your benefits failed and turned against you (by not understanding how the WWW works), but you prefer to blame the other people instead of taking responsibility. Maybe your ego does not allow it?
Anonymous, I'm really sorry you felt the hands...Anonymous, I'm really sorry you felt the hands of being CHEATED that badly.... It REALLY is a HURTFUL thing.... I empathize with you...
Aren't Vesta, Juno and Pallas planetoids or as...Aren't Vesta, Juno and Pallas planetoids or asteroids? Why then do you include them in the list of planets? Wouldn't it be MORE suitable to list them as dwarf planets???? I may be the least likely person to comment because I'm just pursuing a Bachelors in Education... I'm just saying...
The primary planets in the Solar System are: Mercu...The primary planets in the Solar System are: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Vesta, Juno, Ceres, Pallas, Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus.
If Haumea had an icy crust when struck by a disfig...If Haumea had an icy crust when struck by a disfiguring KBO, then how does a presumably solidified rock mantle become elongated (ellipsis)? Was Haumea's mantle molten rock when struck by the passing KBO and if so, how can ice form on molten lava-like rock?<br /><br />Presumably, a comet or other KBO struck Haumea when it had a thick crust of ice, like Pluto, so my question is "was Haumea's mantle solid (solidified rock as it is today) or was it molten, like a blob of lava? <br /><br />If the latter is true, then where did all that ice come from? Was the mantle molten rock and just the outer portion, just under the icy crust, solidified and cold enough to keep the ice from melting? <br /><br />It was said that ice debris (presumably from Haumea's pre-cataclysmic impact or graze by another KBO), was found in the area around Haumea, why has it not been tugged back to Haumea via its gravitational pull?<br /><br />George Smith
@George: Be sure to read "Snow white needs a ...@George: Be sure to read "Snow white needs a bailout" somewhere around this blog. It is all about Snow White = 2007 OR10.<br /><br />We just got some fabulous data on 2007 OR10 but haven't fully digested it yet. Stay tuned for answers. I hope.
Dear Mr. Brown:
What do we know about 2007 OR10 (...Dear Mr. Brown:<br /><br />What do we know about 2007 OR10 (225088)? There appears to be differences in surface composition with some planets (Makemake and Sedna), that may appear reddish, like Mars, but most others, except Haumea, appear to be dirty snowballs or what I like to call them, "spacebergs." Does 2007 OR10 have any distinguishing features or does it look like most KBOs?<br /><br />Any names for this one, we like names? The codes you use are too difficult to remember and are too cold (pun intended).<br /><br />George Smith
If Haumea was half rock (core) and half icy mantle...If Haumea was half rock (core) and half icy mantle, how large was the original planet before being struck by a comet or other KBO passing recklessly through the neighborhood? It would have been quite a bit larger than Pluto and Eris; but even so, it is still impressive. <br /><br />Haumea would have been the largest of the known KBO planets, although it may not have any satellites.<br /><br />Now we know what a rocky core looks like. It appears to be to massive to shatter by just any KBO. <br /><br />What do you think happened to the KBO that struck Haumea, i.e. did it shatter into tiny shards and scatter into the KB or was it incorporated into Haumea? Did the icy mantle absorb all of the impact or is there evidence (crater, cracks, foreign material etc.) on Haumea, of an impact?<br /><br />George Smith
Congrats most of all on your acceptance...Mike, <br /> Congrats most of all on your acceptance of the name that is chosen, Haumea is beautiful and poetically prophetic, or I should say historical of it's roots beyond your wildest imagination. I like it. Acceptance is the key to life anyway, and sounds like either way you know that. Two things, why the co founding with Chad and I didn't see published it's size. Also you mentioned where it originated, can you tell me where that is more precisely and if you know that you should be able to say when it took place? was it in the ball park of 9000 years ago? I guess that is a bit more than two ?'s, thanks john Bnonymous
(55565) 2002 AW197 uses the art of the stratagem i...(55565) 2002 AW197 uses the art of the stratagem in problem-solving, like the strategic therapy used by Prot with Howie in the movie "K-pax" (2001). Wich will be its official name?
1979 = "The 12th Planet" (Harper Books) ...1979 = "The 12th Planet" (Harper Books) - Zacharia Sitchin<br /><br />2003 = SEDNA is discovered - Mike Brown "You"<br /><br />Based on both published observations, which happens to be 24 years apart, one using sumerian tablets (Sitchin), one using modern science and technology (Brown), both suggest a planet that share identical apogees, but different perigees.<br /><br />Sithcin claims its the Sumerian homeworld of the Anuunaki or NIBIRU????....<br /><br />We classify it as a lower class planetoid and its named SEDNA...<br /><br />It may be speculation on my part and I do apologize in that respect, but the similarities "appear" strikingly obvious and I believe this is the same Planet you both are referring to...<br /><br />Thanks Mike for all the hard work...
Ahh, thanks. While it doesn't explain it intui...Ahh, thanks. While it doesn't explain it intuitively you're at least the first to tell me it should. Would showing it more clearly involve complex mathematics (I'm still in the first year of my degree, so I might not be ready for that level of maths yet!) or is there a physical reason you can explain in plain English, or an empirical example you can come up with? Besides Haumea itself, of course.
Here's how it works. No spin, you get ...Anon --<br />Here's how it works. No spin, you get a sphere. A little spin, you get bulges (kind of like a flying saucer, or, as you say, squashed [European] football). Spin more, though and something funny happens. Sadly, this is non intuitive. I will have to ponder to see if I can come up with a good demonstration. When you spin past a certain limit, the flying saucer shape is no longer stable and one long axis grows while one long axis shrinks. At this point you have a "Jacobi ellipsoid" which is a 3D ellipse where all three axes are different sizes.<br /><br />Does that help? Uhhhh. Probably not. But I will ponder to see if I can do better.<br /><br />Mike
I'm a little confused about somethin...Hi Mike,<br /><br />I'm a little confused about something. Why is Haumea shaped like an American football? (I live in England, so the other planets would be "football" shaped to me, although I am, ironically, part Spanish. :P) All the explanations I've heard are about Haumea's extremely rapid rotation - surely this would cause it to "bulge" out at the equator and make it more like a squashed British football than an American one? Why is Haumea long in one dimension and flattened in two, instead of being long in two and flattened in one?
The particular story of a discovery of a new objec...The particular story of a discovery of a new object is always meaningful. In the case of Haumea was very helpful to understand its meaning.
As a follow-up to my two messages above...Dr Brown,<br /><br />As a follow-up to my two messages above from last September, I would like to present you with both Haumea and Makemake:<br /><br />http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-Planet-Dwarfs-Haumea.htm<br />http://www.perseus.gr/Astro-Planet-Dwarfs-Makemake.htm<br /><br />I will obtain a follow pair of images a week after these two results were taken so that there will be a nice illustration of the very slow apparent movement of these two dwarf planets.<br /><br />Best wishes from Greece.<br /><br />Anthony.
Congratulations on the naming victory. I'm researc...Congratulations on the naming victory. I'm researching Haumea for my Earth and Space Science class and even though the controversy is unfortunate perhaps it will make my classmates pay better attention. I enjoy finding out more about the 5th dwarf planet with every step and I'm grateful that you brought so much wonderful information about it to light!
Guillermo --I have indeed read that posting before...Guillermo --<BR/>I have indeed read that posting before. Sadly, it is impossible to know whether to believe it or not. The Spanish team were not particularly forthcoming until finally confronted with the facts. They then tell a story that involves some pretty astounding coincidences and makes them out to be the victims. Is their story impossible? No. That's why I will never be certain what really happened. I think, to be fair, no one will ever know for certain, accept for the Spanish team themselves.<BR/><BR/>Mike
Dear Sir,Your post accuses several times the Span...Dear Sir,<BR/><BR/><BR/>Your post accuses several times the Spanish team of prevarication. You said: <BR/><BR/>"To be fair, though, I don’t think there is any way to ever know the full extent of the truth, except on the off chance that someone on the Spanish team eventually spills the beans about what really happened. I keep waiting"<BR/><BR/>Wait no more Dr Brown, just get someone to help you with the translation of the Spanish team's version of the events (posted on 26th Sept 2008):<BR/><BR/>http://www.infoastro.com/200809/26ataecina-haumea.html<BR/><BR/>If you do not recognize this as "spills the beans about what really happened" then maybe you are only waiting to hear that you are right.<BR/><BR/>Best Regards,<BR/><BR/>Dr G Rein<BR/><BR/><BR/>PD: The article explaining the Spanish team's version finishes with the words: "el pez grande se come al chico" (the big fish eats the small one). Either referring to CV, budget, lobbying or ego, it gives us all something to think about.